Dave perry posted an update 3 weeks, 1 day ago
I thought I’d ask what people think about anti-Semitism and where the boundaries are to them.
Sorry if I offend anyone, this isn’t intentional, but if we don’t discus things we don’t learn.
There seems to be a confusion over what is and what isn’t anti-Semitism even among those who are telling us what’s acceptable and what isn’t.
One of the people on the radio a few days ago, he was an MP and he was Jewish, he gave an example of anti-Semitism which I wasn’t sure about. I can’t recall the exact details, so I’m paraphrasing.
He was a member of a group or team ( I’d don’t know how well he knew the other members, and this might be very important, it would be to me as would the tone with which it was delivered).
Someone said to him, “I’m glad you on our team, at least we’ve got someone to look after the money”, obviously implying that because he was Jewish, he had a head for monetary issues.
On the face of it, a little crass and definitely stereotyping!
Now, I’m originally from Hartlepool if I was in the same position as MP X above, and someone said, “I’m glad you’re are on our team, at least we’ve got someone to look after the monkeys.”
Should I take offense?
Are the two instances very different?
Supposing the bloke who made the statement was an old friend, in both instances (mine and his), is the remark still offensive?
I’d say both are insensitive and rude. The one about money though links to a huge historical stereotype about Jews that has resulted in all sorts of horrors. The Hartlepool one is just a reference to a transient absurd election and nothing more. I’d say the former a shows prejudice and is arguably anti-semitic, while the later is just crass.
No the Hartlepool on has been around all my life, and was reportedly from the Napoleonic wars.
So is time an issue in determining, degree of offence (couldn’t think how better to phrase this).
And while I agree, it’s prejudice (probably *), is all Jewish prejudice anti-Semitism?
* I can see where this might still be prejudice but not offencive.
What if the MP had himself made the statement?
I’ve heard similar from some of my Jewish friends, and given the circumstances where there were a lot of bananas to look after, I might suggest I look after them because of my background.
Was it not Hartlepool that elected a monkey? Didn’t know about the history. Maybe more similar then but I still think the Jewish thing is a “bigger” prejudice and has lead to serious results (I understand Hartlepool is dump but I don’t think that’s to do with monkeys).
They elected the football club mascot as mayor. The mascot is a man in a monkey suit called “Hangus”. This is because during the Napoleonic Wars a live monkey was washed on the shores of Hartlepool, captured then tried and hung as a French spy.
from the Jewish Voice UK
“Today we’ve seen something new & very nasty. Non-Jewish people (mostly Tories) telling Jewish people (who support Corbyn) that they’re Anti-Semitic. In other words Non-Jews condemning Jews as Anti-Semites. What a horrible state Britain is in 2018”
It was in relation to the protest and Ian Paisley MP, amongst others, being part of the protest. I thought it rather apt.
Sorry I know this is a little off topic, but there were two counter Jewish groups arguing against each other.
Considering Jewish history- yes it is offensive.
I would watch Simon Schamas’ last programme on Civilisations about Art in the machine world to gain an understanding of why.
You come across as a thoughtful person.To be honest I am even amazed you are asking the question.
I didn’t say it wasn’t offensive, I wanted to know if it was anti-Semitic.
Assuming it might be, I don’t really know hence the question, what if the MP had said it himself?
Is it offensive then? If it was anti-Semitic when someone else says it, is it still anti-Semitic when a Jew says it.
Like I said, I have many example of my Jewish friends saying something similar and “other” groups saying roughly the same thing, playing on stereotypes people might put on them.
I think the big issue with this sort of stuff is when it feeds into a culture that does real harm, or reinforces the idea that such a culture exists and is acceptable. So with the Hartlepool example I’d probably consider it to be harmless piss-taking among mates in Middlesborough, but totally unacceptable from, say, a posh tutor to a student at Oxford, where you might genuinely feel like you weren’t fitting in and being taking seriously because you aren’t posh and southern enough. Anti-semitism is very obviously problematic under most circumstances because anti-semitic cultures have a nasty habit of committing mass-murder.
Regarding people taking the piss out of themselves, I think the question of when you start to feed into or reinforce a genuinely harmful culture is context dependent. So when it’s people talking about themselves, it’s normally not a problem, because it’s obvious that the stereotype isn’t meant to be taken seriously. With a close mate who’s happy with that sort of thing, in private, probably, but if a broader audience who don’t know the context are going to hear it then you have to be aware that you aren’t just saying “this is an acceptable thing for me to say to my mate because everyone here knows I don’t mean it” but “this is an acceptable thing to say generally”.
I’d say it has to do with intent, at least for some instances. But in same vein, some people want to be offended, then obviously there’s the deliberate intention to abuse.
One of my difficulties, is offence always anti-Semitic? Or is there still a place to be offend and not claim anti-Semitism.
And of course your correct in the general usage of words, and indeed groups taking offensive language for themselves.
Case in point, group of lads on a train, looking at their phone discussing girls, “I’m telling you man she’s a Paki”, they were Asian lads, but how do you tell where someone comes from.
I called them out and suggested they not use the term Paki, they pointed out they were Paki’s. We then talked about how come they don’t mind the word, what about if I called them Paki’s etc.
Again a minefield, some said it wouldn’t matter, others said they’d be pissed off, some said it would depend on how I said it.
I’m also aware of people accepting thing because it’s easier, but some people simply don’t care.
I don’t come at this without any vested interest, my son is mixed race; African-American, he’s been subjected to some awful abuse. One of the most recent some woman saying, “What you looking at you Muslim cnut, why don’t you f*ck off back to you own country and blow some of your kids up.” At the time she’d got her pushchair jambed in a drain and he was on his way to help her get it out!! He has a bit of a beard and not white skin so obviously he must be Muslim.
I believe the protesters were calling the Labour party supporters anti-Semitic. One of the protesters was Ian Paisley, though I do believe there were other non-Jewish (I don’t tink Paisley is a Jew – I had to leave the spelling mistake in as it made me laugh – though probably stereotyping again!).
Since some Labour party supporters are Jewish, we seem to have Jewish people being called anti-Semites, by people who aren’t themselves Jewish, but never the less being supported by other people who are Jewish!!
Is it any wonder people get confused?
I’m not the most sensitive man in the world, certainly not the most PC, but I would say the suggestion that the Jew on a team should automatically “handle the money” is anti Semitic, even if it was said as a joke.
As for Hartlepool, well that’s a place, not a race.
What if it was a friend of his who said it?
What if he’d said it?
Is Judaism as race?
Judaism is (arguably) both a religion and a race but don’t worry about it.
I think if there had never been any Jewish converts then the race bit would be pretty solid. But conversions have muddied the waters.
For instance, because I’m not a Cohen, I don’t know how much (if any) of my long term ancestry goes back to Abraham and how much to converts from over the millennia.
The MP’s story. Offensive, to some people yes. Ignorant, maybe. Anti-Semitic, again maybe.
It all depends on context which includes the background etc of both the speaker and the recipient.
What if there was a whole history of similar comments but two-way – then it might just be a continuation of some friendly banter.
One good test of anti-Semitism is to put black instead of Jew in any situation (might require some other changes). Is the result racist? If yes then the original was probably Anti-Semitic.
Like all these things it’s not black and white. (Should I have said that? Should I have said it’s not jew and gentile? Would that be Anti-Semitic? Does me being Jewish make a difference? Complicated eh?)
I would not even dream of asking the question – to me it is obvious.
I recommend you see the excellent docu film Denial with Timothy Spall playing the holocaust denier David Irving. Gets you thinking and might open your eyes a bit.
Sorry to labour the point, but what might be obvious to you isn’t to everyone, and I was trying to gauge someone else’s opinion, not what I thought they might think.
Supposing something is obvious, doesn’t help someone who doesn’t know, does it?
Quite often the obvious thing is what’s missing.
Without knowing other people boundaries it’s difficult to compare to other scenarios or where I might sit in the Venn Diagram of society.
Well read up on the history of Germany before 1939 and how Hitler used such issues as portraying the Jews as bankers etc . Then figure out why it is so offensive.
It is not difficult… in actual fact its so easy to find out and figure it out.
Your a clever person…I am still amazed you are even asking about boundaries.
Visit some concentration camps. Go listen to a survivor.
The personal offence taken or otherwise, is, to me a secondary consideration. Casual racism, anti-semitism, Christianphobea, etc is an enabler of greater evil.
That’s a good point. but it can also work the other way around, the word gay has now changed from being an insult to just a word now, so things can change. If everyone took offence to being called gay it would once again become an insult.
But I think you have hit on something valid there, from my son’s (half cast) point of view, it’s the casual stuff that bothers him more, getting stopped at the airport pisses him off, because he rarely get through without a search. Though in other spheres he’s not that touchy, again it comes down to intent I think.
I’d argue that in liberal western countries it’s not that the word gay has changed from being an insult so much as the fact that being gay is no longer seen as odd or shameful (However, that doesn’t make western society right).
The example you gave of jokingly asking the Jew to look after the money is hideously offensive because the Nazis used the myth of international jewish bankers secretly undermining nations and starting wars as one of their central justifications for the holocaust.
It subtly (or not) changes the environment so that “real” anti-Semitism is more acceptable!
So much is based on conditioned stereotypes. I wonder whether the western world’s view of Jews is still that they’re wealthy. Ask yourself (not just you) whether that’s part of your image.
Sure, some Jews are wealthy, but not all (certainly not me), and there are many poor Jews as well.
Just in case you or others don’t know, the rich Jew image stems right back to hundreds of years ago when Jews were not allowed to be in other trades or professions but were allowed to be bankers/moneylenders. They needed to make significant charges because so often the kings,queen’s,nobles,etc defaulted on paying loans back by basically kicking the Jews out.
Amazing that the situation from maybe 700 years ago can still cause stereotypes.
Racism has no doubt occurred for ever and everywhere, but in the European context is has centred on the Jews, partly no doubt because they have been the most obvious “others”. In a sense therefore, antisemitism is is “orginal sin” of racism. Hence the outrage at parts of the left being guilty of it and others overlooking it.
The following is a brief summary of Incidents involving Jews in History…
135 B.C Antiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against the Greeks.
70 A.D. Titus took Jerusalem – second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.
136 A.D. 580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed – third revolt.
300 A.D.Purim festival celebrating God’s deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.
306 A.D. Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.
325 A.D. Constantine changed the celebration of Easter on the calendar so that it did not coincide with the Jewish Passover.
379 A.D. Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: “The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.” He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.
395 A.D. St. Gregory of Nyssa in sermons and writings characterized Jews as assassins of the Prophets, companions of the Devil, a race of vipers, a Sanhedrin of Demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness.
415 A.D. Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OFALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.
717 A.D. Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.
1012 A.D. Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.
1096 A.D. First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.
1144 A.D. First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had “bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord.” (England)
This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)
1190 A.D. Massacre of Jews in England.
1215 A.D. The Jewish badge introduced.
1240 A.D. Talmud burned in France.
1290 A.D. Jews expelled from England.
1298 A.D. Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.
1306 A.D. Expulsion from France.
1348 A.D. JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.
1389 A.D. MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.
1421 A.D. 270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution
1480 A.D. Inquisition in Spain – Jews and Christians burned at the stake.
1483 A.D. EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.
1492 A.D. ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.
1506 A.D. Murders in Lisbon – 4000, “conversos”, men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.
1510 A.D. EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.
1516 A.D. Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.
1544 A.D. The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther’s life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as “the Chosen” people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther’s anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.
1553 A.D. Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.
1559 A.D. 12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.
1569 A.D. POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.
1593 A.D. EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.
1598 A.D. Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the “Birth of the Prison” Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing…)
1614 A.D. JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.
1624 A.D. GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.
1648 A.D. Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.
1655 A.D. Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.
1715 A.D. POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.
1768 A.D. 20,000 Jews in Poland killed.
1805 A.D. MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.
1840 A.D. BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.
1853 A.D. BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.
1858 A.D. THE MORTARA CASE: Catholics abduct a 7 yr. old Jewish child. A Catholic servant baptized a Jewish child when the child was seriously ill and the church of Rome seized the child. Outcry had no effect on the POPE.
1879 A.D. Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.
1881 A.D. POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.
KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.
1882 A.D. FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.
1894 A.D. ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.
1903 A.D. APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.
This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California… Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.
1905 A.D. Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.
1919 A.D. 3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.
1920 A.D. Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.
1925 A.D. MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler’s Plan published in Germany.
1933 A.D. HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.
1935 A.D. Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.
1938 A.D. Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.
1939 A.D. Germany overruns Poland.
1940 A.D. Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).
1941 A.D. EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.
1942 A.D. Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.
1944 A.D. EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.
1945 A.D. HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.
1946 A.D. Pogroms in Poland – 42 Jews murdered.
1948 A.D. BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.
1952 A.D. Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..
1956 A.D. Jews expelled out of EGYPT.
1967 A.D. SIX DAY WAR. Also new publication of Elders of Zion in Arabic.
1968 A.D. Emigration of last remaining Jews in Poland.
1969 A.D. JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.
1970 A.D. Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. (“Refuseniks”)
1980 A.D. Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70’s to the 80’s.
1982 A.D. War in Lebanon begins after many years of terrorist attacks against the Jews in the Upper Galilee area from the vantage point of Beaufort Castle. Many Lebanese killed over long period of time, but was ignored by the News Media. War in Lebanon gets slanted coverage.
1983 A.D. Word from Christians in Israel that the PLO planned their next battleground to be Canada via Quebec. Documented proof that Russia planned in 1982 to attack Israel.
I’m aware of the persecution of Jews throughout history, admittedly I wasn’t aware of all the items in your list, but again I’m not sure I need to be.
If you against racism in general then you really don’t need any historical background, indeed it could be said to people without the history, “well there’s no history of abuse, so why are you complaining?”
But the centuries-old conspiracy theories woven into anti-Semitism are what makes it more insidious than bog-standard racism. Racism against blacks or Asians tends towards what they *are* (savages, 3/5 of a human, smelly, whatever horrid minimisations people can come up with), whereas hatred against Jews is motivated significantly by anti-Semites’ view that Jews mean us ill (New World Order, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, blood sacrifices, f*cking “Rothschild”, no Jews died in 9/11 because Mossad tipped them off, etc, etc, etc), which gives people not normally pre-disposed to racism a reason (in their heads) that this particular kind of racism is justifiable. It’s incredibly dangerous.